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	<title>Comments on: Vaishnavism and Homosexuality</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 14:28:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: krsna das</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-12118</link>
		<dc:creator>krsna das</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 23:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Is sticking to rulles and regulations more beneficial than taking the graduall path,even if takes lifetimes.Is it possible to return home back to Godhead by acts of repentance during life and at the end of it,being unable to be free of all anartas? 
Kd]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is sticking to rulles and regulations more beneficial than taking the graduall path,even if takes lifetimes.Is it possible to return home back to Godhead by acts of repentance during life and at the end of it,being unable to be free of all anartas?<br />
Kd</p>
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		<title>By: govinda</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-7447</link>
		<dc:creator>govinda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Nov 2010 22:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-7447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[the use of the word homosexual is the first mistake.  there are certain sexual acts that are forbidden,irrespective of any sexual orientation. there is no sanskrit word for homosexual. the episode in the srimad bhagavtam that is often recalled is in regards to the attempted anal rape of lord brahma.  we can all accept that forced anal or vaginal intercourse will be forbidden by any religous sripture ..be it vedic or ibrahamic.  it is interesting to note that the quranic episodes where so called homosexuality is condemmed is also referring to anal rape.this time of an angel who appeared as a beautifull boy. again interestingly enough there is no arabic or hebrew translation for this all encommpassing concocted term homosexual.made up by the english 100 years ago.
as vaishnavas we should never allow the cultural terms of language of the cowkilling english(even the french refer to the english as le roast beefs)to dictate our own cultural norms. so we can all agree ...if we are inclined sexually to our own gender..or not...that forced sexual intercourse be it anal or vaginal is anathema to the civilised.we do not need the english or the bedu to tell us this.thankyou very much. kindly read the srimad bhagavatam carefully in its original sanskrit and do not bring any abrahamic cultural baggage to your study.  lord brahmas children attempted to rape him...bringing incest into the picture also]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the use of the word homosexual is the first mistake.  there are certain sexual acts that are forbidden,irrespective of any sexual orientation. there is no sanskrit word for homosexual. the episode in the srimad bhagavtam that is often recalled is in regards to the attempted anal rape of lord brahma.  we can all accept that forced anal or vaginal intercourse will be forbidden by any religous sripture ..be it vedic or ibrahamic.  it is interesting to note that the quranic episodes where so called homosexuality is condemmed is also referring to anal rape.this time of an angel who appeared as a beautifull boy. again interestingly enough there is no arabic or hebrew translation for this all encommpassing concocted term homosexual.made up by the english 100 years ago.<br />
as vaishnavas we should never allow the cultural terms of language of the cowkilling english(even the french refer to the english as le roast beefs)to dictate our own cultural norms. so we can all agree &#8230;if we are inclined sexually to our own gender..or not&#8230;that forced sexual intercourse be it anal or vaginal is anathema to the civilised.we do not need the english or the bedu to tell us this.thankyou very much. kindly read the srimad bhagavatam carefully in its original sanskrit and do not bring any abrahamic cultural baggage to your study.  lord brahmas children attempted to rape him&#8230;bringing incest into the picture also</p>
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		<title>By: Vikram Ramsoondur</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-2884</link>
		<dc:creator>Vikram Ramsoondur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-2884</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would concur with you, Frank. This thread had a special focus on homosexuality, but I think that much of your point could also be extended to heterosexuals, meat-eaters, and so forth - in short, practically every beginner or kanistha, if you will, who is still very much in essence a materialist with an interest in spirituality, nothing more. As I fall in this category myself, I&#039;m speaking from first-hand experience.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would concur with you, Frank. This thread had a special focus on homosexuality, but I think that much of your point could also be extended to heterosexuals, meat-eaters, and so forth &#8211; in short, practically every beginner or kanistha, if you will, who is still very much in essence a materialist with an interest in spirituality, nothing more. As I fall in this category myself, I&#8217;m speaking from first-hand experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-2880</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-2880</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I very much like Thomas&#039; summation. The discussion of this topic was, at times, way too academic. In my understanding, bhakti-yoga is not a dry subject matter, but something that has to be tried and experienced.

This particular devotee in a homosexual body tries to minimize his need for sex. Even though he cannot maintain perfect celibacy or regular japa, the real question is how does his love for Krishna grow? On Friday he had his weekly sex release. On Saturday he sent money to the LA temple, remembering that really his whole paycheck comes from Rukmini-Dwarkadisha. Later he read the introduction to Baladeva&#039;s Govinda-bhashya. He was particularly moved by it and did a full dandavat, inspired by a vision of Govindaji. 

Does he really see Govindaji within his and everyone&#039;s heart now? Is that just an illusion because he is unable to completely curb his material desires?

If I recall correctly, Prabhupada compared the start of devotional service to unplugging a running fan. The blades will continue to move for a while.

If I may say so, I would like to hear more about how devotees have dealt practically with their homosexuality and spiritual growth than the rules and regulations prescribed by the scriptures and saints. I don&#039;t mean to minimize the impaortance of regulations, but I feel that the intentions can get lost in them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much like Thomas&#8217; summation. The discussion of this topic was, at times, way too academic. In my understanding, bhakti-yoga is not a dry subject matter, but something that has to be tried and experienced.</p>
<p>This particular devotee in a homosexual body tries to minimize his need for sex. Even though he cannot maintain perfect celibacy or regular japa, the real question is how does his love for Krishna grow? On Friday he had his weekly sex release. On Saturday he sent money to the LA temple, remembering that really his whole paycheck comes from Rukmini-Dwarkadisha. Later he read the introduction to Baladeva&#8217;s Govinda-bhashya. He was particularly moved by it and did a full dandavat, inspired by a vision of Govindaji. </p>
<p>Does he really see Govindaji within his and everyone&#8217;s heart now? Is that just an illusion because he is unable to completely curb his material desires?</p>
<p>If I recall correctly, Prabhupada compared the start of devotional service to unplugging a running fan. The blades will continue to move for a while.</p>
<p>If I may say so, I would like to hear more about how devotees have dealt practically with their homosexuality and spiritual growth than the rules and regulations prescribed by the scriptures and saints. I don&#8217;t mean to minimize the impaortance of regulations, but I feel that the intentions can get lost in them.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-2547</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-2547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;It&#039;s not the issue that is in question, but the question that is at issue.&quot;

That&#039;s a little ditty I wrote as part of my Master&#039;s thesis.  It applies well to this topic.

The question shouldn&#039;t be: is homosexuality a sin, but rather - is focusing on the bodily concept something that will destroy our sadhana?  There may be many straight people who will take their next birth as a dog or hog, and many gay people who will advance to the next level of spiritual existence.

The whole idea of living a Krishna conscious life is to get away from those things that have trapped us from time immemorial.  The sin isn&#039;t in whose body we want to share our lives with, but rather in doing that, what will it do to our determination to advance to the point where we can leave the material world?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s not the issue that is in question, but the question that is at issue.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a little ditty I wrote as part of my Master&#8217;s thesis.  It applies well to this topic.</p>
<p>The question shouldn&#8217;t be: is homosexuality a sin, but rather &#8211; is focusing on the bodily concept something that will destroy our sadhana?  There may be many straight people who will take their next birth as a dog or hog, and many gay people who will advance to the next level of spiritual existence.</p>
<p>The whole idea of living a Krishna conscious life is to get away from those things that have trapped us from time immemorial.  The sin isn&#8217;t in whose body we want to share our lives with, but rather in doing that, what will it do to our determination to advance to the point where we can leave the material world?</p>
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		<title>By: Amara dasa</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-1129</link>
		<dc:creator>Amara dasa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-1129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is &lt;em&gt;smarta-dharma &lt;/em&gt;and there is &lt;em&gt;jaiva-&lt;/em&gt; or &lt;em&gt;sanatana-dharma&lt;/em&gt;.  Dovetailing &lt;em&gt;kama&lt;/em&gt; according to &lt;em&gt;smarta-dharma &lt;/em&gt;would entail marrying a wife, worshiping the ancestors and engaging in sex only for begetting children.  Dovetailing &lt;em&gt;kama&lt;/em&gt; according to &lt;em&gt;sanatana-dharma &lt;/em&gt;or Krsna consciousness, however, involves centering the relationship on Krsna and viewing one&#039;s partner as a servant of Krsna.  This is what Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura states in his book, &lt;em&gt;Jaiva Dharma&lt;/em&gt;, anyway.  The latter definition could easily include same-sex couples whereas the former would be less likely to.

In his purport to BG 7.11, Srila Prabhupada speaks of dharma in terms of &lt;em&gt;smarta&lt;/em&gt; or ordinary religious principles but there are higher Vaishnava principles as well.  Another point: Krsna says in the Gita that among fishes, He is the shark, but that doesn&#039;t mean all other fishes are therefore bad or unwanted.  BG 7.11 implies that there are many, many different types of &lt;em&gt;kama&lt;/em&gt; or desire but out of all of them, &lt;em&gt;kama&lt;/em&gt; according to religious principles (either &lt;em&gt;smarta&lt;/em&gt; or &lt;em&gt;sanatana&lt;/em&gt;) is the highest and therefore most represents Him.

Like other intersex conditions, there are many different biological factors causing homosexuality but all of them ultimately involve hormonal effects on the primal brain in utero.  There is no evidence I am aware of demonstrating that homosexual people are more likely to have homosexual offspring, so I wouldn&#039;t use that as an argument against marrying gays to straight people!  Homosexual offspring are overwhelmingly produced by heterosexual parents and the more offspring they produce, the more likely they are to have a homosexual child.  One study I&#039;ve seen apparently demonstrates that the more sons a woman has, the more likely her succeeding sons are to be gay.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is <em>smarta-dharma </em>and there is <em>jaiva-</em> or <em>sanatana-dharma</em>.  Dovetailing <em>kama</em> according to <em>smarta-dharma </em>would entail marrying a wife, worshiping the ancestors and engaging in sex only for begetting children.  Dovetailing <em>kama</em> according to <em>sanatana-dharma </em>or Krsna consciousness, however, involves centering the relationship on Krsna and viewing one&#8217;s partner as a servant of Krsna.  This is what Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura states in his book, <em>Jaiva Dharma</em>, anyway.  The latter definition could easily include same-sex couples whereas the former would be less likely to.</p>
<p>In his purport to BG 7.11, Srila Prabhupada speaks of dharma in terms of <em>smarta</em> or ordinary religious principles but there are higher Vaishnava principles as well.  Another point: Krsna says in the Gita that among fishes, He is the shark, but that doesn&#8217;t mean all other fishes are therefore bad or unwanted.  BG 7.11 implies that there are many, many different types of <em>kama</em> or desire but out of all of them, <em>kama</em> according to religious principles (either <em>smarta</em> or <em>sanatana</em>) is the highest and therefore most represents Him.</p>
<p>Like other intersex conditions, there are many different biological factors causing homosexuality but all of them ultimately involve hormonal effects on the primal brain in utero.  There is no evidence I am aware of demonstrating that homosexual people are more likely to have homosexual offspring, so I wouldn&#8217;t use that as an argument against marrying gays to straight people!  Homosexual offspring are overwhelmingly produced by heterosexual parents and the more offspring they produce, the more likely they are to have a homosexual child.  One study I&#8217;ve seen apparently demonstrates that the more sons a woman has, the more likely her succeeding sons are to be gay.</p>
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		<title>By: Kula-pavana</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-1122</link>
		<dc:creator>Kula-pavana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-1122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tripurari Maharaja translates dharmaviruddho bhuteshu kamo ’smi as: &quot;I am love that is righteous&quot;. That is a good way to put it. This sloka is certainly not supporting homosexuality but IMO it&#039;s meaning is much deeper than &quot;I am sex for procreation only&quot;. In the Vedic literature we have many beautiful love stories where even very saintly personalities like Kardama Muni and Devahuti enjoy sex life far beyond what is minimally required for procreation. Such relations are all praised in the Vedic literature as righteous (dharmic) and thus the meaning of Bg. 7.11 must be seen in this context.

Can a homosexual love be righteous? I do not see a reason why not. How often does it happen? Probably not very often, but it is an ideal homosexual people need to strive for, as it is a positive motivation, much better than simple repression. Remember? Even a man of distinction is forced to act according to his nature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tripurari Maharaja translates dharmaviruddho bhuteshu kamo ’smi as: &#8220;I am love that is righteous&#8221;. That is a good way to put it. This sloka is certainly not supporting homosexuality but IMO it&#8217;s meaning is much deeper than &#8220;I am sex for procreation only&#8221;. In the Vedic literature we have many beautiful love stories where even very saintly personalities like Kardama Muni and Devahuti enjoy sex life far beyond what is minimally required for procreation. Such relations are all praised in the Vedic literature as righteous (dharmic) and thus the meaning of Bg. 7.11 must be seen in this context.</p>
<p>Can a homosexual love be righteous? I do not see a reason why not. How often does it happen? Probably not very often, but it is an ideal homosexual people need to strive for, as it is a positive motivation, much better than simple repression. Remember? Even a man of distinction is forced to act according to his nature.</p>
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		<title>By: Kula-pavana</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-1121</link>
		<dc:creator>Kula-pavana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-1121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is not as simple as &quot;homosexuals come from homosexual parents&quot;. I have quite an extensive background in biological science, including genetics, to know that. Yet research shows that genetic makeup of many homosexual individuals may have a lot to do with their sexual preferences, and that makeup can be passed down to their progeny. 

Since in biological sense allowing these individuals to breed is undesirable, they should be allowed to mate with their own kind. As you have said: &quot;Let heterosexuals perpetuate the human race, and let every member of society be functional and happy, no matter what their sexual orientation, creed, sex, race, etc.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not as simple as &#8220;homosexuals come from homosexual parents&#8221;. I have quite an extensive background in biological science, including genetics, to know that. Yet research shows that genetic makeup of many homosexual individuals may have a lot to do with their sexual preferences, and that makeup can be passed down to their progeny. </p>
<p>Since in biological sense allowing these individuals to breed is undesirable, they should be allowed to mate with their own kind. As you have said: &#8220;Let heterosexuals perpetuate the human race, and let every member of society be functional and happy, no matter what their sexual orientation, creed, sex, race, etc.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Syamasundara Dasa</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-1119</link>
		<dc:creator>Syamasundara Dasa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 03:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-1119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;In the purely biological sense it is better when homosexual individuals form unions between themselves and not with heterosexual partners, because in that way their genes are not propagated in the population. It is yet another natural self regulating mechanism of this material world.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is quite bizarre. First, what&#039;s wrong if those &quot;genes&quot; are spread? Are you saying that homosexuals come from homosexual parents? Or that they are some kind of genetic mutation that happens even in the best families, just like a baby may be born dwarf (incidentally, dwarfs may have full-sized children)?
Homosexuals should find partners among themselves just because it&#039;s who they belong with, for sensitivity, sensibility, culture and sexual orientation.
However, in one sense, although from very different view points, maybe we are saying the same thing if you mean that they should make couples among themselves, because if they keep in the famous closet, that will bring about dysfunctional individuals, parents, children, and ultimately society. Let heterosexuals perpetuate the human race, and let every member of society be functional and happy, no matter what their sexual orientation, creed, sex, race, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In the purely biological sense it is better when homosexual individuals form unions between themselves and not with heterosexual partners, because in that way their genes are not propagated in the population. It is yet another natural self regulating mechanism of this material world.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is quite bizarre. First, what&#8217;s wrong if those &#8220;genes&#8221; are spread? Are you saying that homosexuals come from homosexual parents? Or that they are some kind of genetic mutation that happens even in the best families, just like a baby may be born dwarf (incidentally, dwarfs may have full-sized children)?<br />
Homosexuals should find partners among themselves just because it&#8217;s who they belong with, for sensitivity, sensibility, culture and sexual orientation.<br />
However, in one sense, although from very different view points, maybe we are saying the same thing if you mean that they should make couples among themselves, because if they keep in the famous closet, that will bring about dysfunctional individuals, parents, children, and ultimately society. Let heterosexuals perpetuate the human race, and let every member of society be functional and happy, no matter what their sexual orientation, creed, sex, race, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Syamasundara Dasa</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/04/vaishnavism-and-homosexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-1118</link>
		<dc:creator>Syamasundara Dasa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 03:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=137#comment-1118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Payonidhi prabhu, 

I don&#039;t know if English is your first language, but... a son by one&#039;s wife? How about a daughter by one&#039;s husband? Or in other words, your wording expresses a certain rigid view, and we know that flexibility is a golden virtue among Vaishnavas, if they are to understand the Absolute and preach about it, especially in a society where women are not given in charity to men anymore, marriages are a mutual decision, and so is having children, no matter what their gender. Not only that, it&#039;s a society where homosexuals (who have always existed and have never chosen to be such) are being accepted in more and more respect, and they would feel alienated if, when it comes to their spirituality, they came across such exposition of our siddhanta.
I don&#039;t think anybody here is saying that Krsna is supporting homosexuality, but for sure he supports a soul being brought closer to him, no matter what subtle and gross body recover it, and for sure he supports those devotees who do their best to bridge the gap between himself and such souls. By their best I don&#039;t mean tweaking the scripture, but rather using their intelligence to find any possible way to shorten that bridge. As SP says, buddhi-yoga means bhakti-yoga.
Even if the paragraph I am referring to was Sridhara Swami&#039;s actual words (it&#039;s not clear, there were no quotation marks), you still expressed that rigidity when you said: &quot;This verse should never been seen to support homesexuality.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Payonidhi prabhu, </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if English is your first language, but&#8230; a son by one&#8217;s wife? How about a daughter by one&#8217;s husband? Or in other words, your wording expresses a certain rigid view, and we know that flexibility is a golden virtue among Vaishnavas, if they are to understand the Absolute and preach about it, especially in a society where women are not given in charity to men anymore, marriages are a mutual decision, and so is having children, no matter what their gender. Not only that, it&#8217;s a society where homosexuals (who have always existed and have never chosen to be such) are being accepted in more and more respect, and they would feel alienated if, when it comes to their spirituality, they came across such exposition of our siddhanta.<br />
I don&#8217;t think anybody here is saying that Krsna is supporting homosexuality, but for sure he supports a soul being brought closer to him, no matter what subtle and gross body recover it, and for sure he supports those devotees who do their best to bridge the gap between himself and such souls. By their best I don&#8217;t mean tweaking the scripture, but rather using their intelligence to find any possible way to shorten that bridge. As SP says, buddhi-yoga means bhakti-yoga.<br />
Even if the paragraph I am referring to was Sridhara Swami&#8217;s actual words (it&#8217;s not clear, there were no quotation marks), you still expressed that rigidity when you said: &#8220;This verse should never been seen to support homesexuality.&#8221;</p>
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