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	<title>Comments on: K. Pattabhi Jois dies at 94</title>
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		<title>By: Gaura-Vijaya</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1104</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaura-Vijaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>How do we place the devotee who employs yoga as an aid to bhakti,like the one mentioned by BVT in Prema Pradipa. Is he only going to get santa rasa?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do we place the devotee who employs yoga as an aid to bhakti,like the one mentioned by BVT in Prema Pradipa. Is he only going to get santa rasa?</p>
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		<title>By: Gaura-Vijaya</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1103</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaura-Vijaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1103</guid>
		<description>Certainly meditation is a part of bhakti. I was also referring to tools like pranayama, asana( a good posture) etc that can aid one&#039;s mantra dhyana. Though Sanatana Gosvami had spoken about the use of pranayama in mantra dhyana, it seems like practitioners of Gaudiya Vaisnavism since Visvanath Cakaravarti Thakur do not view these tools favorably. 


I think it is hard to do mantra dhayana or harinama with absorption for many devotees including myself. I think advanced yogis are more qualified in that respect and if they for instance pick up gopala mantra or hare krsna mantra with the sadhaya of bhakti their results will much better than me. 
It is clear that there is more emphasis on elaborate deity worship than on mantra dhyana in modern day GV. In one lecture, I heard more qualification is required for smarnam( perhaps a more controlled mind). So aren&#039;t advanced yogis more qualified than most devotees in that respect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly meditation is a part of bhakti. I was also referring to tools like pranayama, asana( a good posture) etc that can aid one&#8217;s mantra dhyana. Though Sanatana Gosvami had spoken about the use of pranayama in mantra dhyana, it seems like practitioners of Gaudiya Vaisnavism since Visvanath Cakaravarti Thakur do not view these tools favorably. </p>
<p>I think it is hard to do mantra dhayana or harinama with absorption for many devotees including myself. I think advanced yogis are more qualified in that respect and if they for instance pick up gopala mantra or hare krsna mantra with the sadhaya of bhakti their results will much better than me.<br />
It is clear that there is more emphasis on elaborate deity worship than on mantra dhyana in modern day GV. In one lecture, I heard more qualification is required for smarnam( perhaps a more controlled mind). So aren&#8217;t advanced yogis more qualified than most devotees in that respect?</p>
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		<title>By: swami bv tripurari</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1102</link>
		<dc:creator>swami bv tripurari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1102</guid>
		<description>But meditation is not exclusive to yoga &lt;em&gt;sadhana&lt;/em&gt;. The sages meditated on the Gopal mantra, but this is not necessarily yoga &lt;em&gt;sadhana&lt;/em&gt;. &lt;em&gt;Dhyana&lt;/em&gt; is also found in bhakti (&lt;em&gt;samranam&lt;/em&gt;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But meditation is not exclusive to yoga <em>sadhana</em>. The sages meditated on the Gopal mantra, but this is not necessarily yoga <em>sadhana</em>. <em>Dhyana</em> is also found in bhakti (<em>samranam</em>).</p>
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		<title>By: Gaura-Vijaya</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1101</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaura-Vijaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1101</guid>
		<description>Another interesting example is that of the sages of dandakaranya who employed  yoga as a tool in their bhakti, the result of which was that they attained gopi bhava in dvapara yuga. Obviously mantra dhyana was the main focus of their sadhana.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another interesting example is that of the sages of dandakaranya who employed  yoga as a tool in their bhakti, the result of which was that they attained gopi bhava in dvapara yuga. Obviously mantra dhyana was the main focus of their sadhana.</p>
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		<title>By: swami bv tripurari</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1100</link>
		<dc:creator>swami bv tripurari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1100</guid>
		<description>Then again, it may be inaccurate to equate &lt;em&gt;citta vritti nirodah&lt;/em&gt; of yoga to &lt;em&gt;ceto darpana marajanam&lt;/em&gt; of &lt;em&gt;nama sankirtana&lt;/em&gt;, becasue the latter speaks of cleansing the &lt;em&gt;citta&lt;/em&gt; whereas the former speaks of arresting the &lt;em&gt;vrittis &lt;/em&gt;of the &lt;em&gt;citta &lt;/em&gt;through meditation. Looking at it like this would place &lt;em&gt;ceto darpana marjanam&lt;/em&gt;—the first result of &lt;em&gt;nama sankirtana&lt;/em&gt;—more closely to the result of &lt;em&gt;niskama-karma-yoga&lt;/em&gt; that enables one to sit properly and meditate. Nonetheless &lt;em&gt;citta-vritti-nirodah&lt;/em&gt; is far from Vraja-&lt;em&gt;rasa&lt;/em&gt;. 

As for Krishna doing yoga, we find this in Dvaraka, but your point is interesting. Still the &lt;em&gt;sadhya&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;sadhana&lt;/em&gt; of yoga and bhakti are distinct, as explained by the Goswamis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then again, it may be inaccurate to equate <em>citta vritti nirodah</em> of yoga to <em>ceto darpana marajanam</em> of <em>nama sankirtana</em>, becasue the latter speaks of cleansing the <em>citta</em> whereas the former speaks of arresting the <em>vrittis </em>of the <em>citta </em>through meditation. Looking at it like this would place <em>ceto darpana marjanam</em>—the first result of <em>nama sankirtana</em>—more closely to the result of <em>niskama-karma-yoga</em> that enables one to sit properly and meditate. Nonetheless <em>citta-vritti-nirodah</em> is far from Vraja-<em>rasa</em>. </p>
<p>As for Krishna doing yoga, we find this in Dvaraka, but your point is interesting. Still the <em>sadhya</em> and <em>sadhana</em> of yoga and bhakti are distinct, as explained by the Goswamis.</p>
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		<title>By: Gaura-Vijaya</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1099</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaura-Vijaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1099</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your clarification.  According to the writings of Krisnamacarya, he just uses yoga as a tool to aid in his bhakti and his ideal of dasya rasa in Vaikuntha. Perhaps it is similar to the person in Prema Pradipa of BVT who uses yoga, but only as a tool to aid in bhakti. There are other examples like Dhruva who use yoga as a tool to reach Narayana. And again it is perplexing to find Krsna, yogesvara himself employing yoga in his morning sadhana.  
There were lot of spillovers from one path to the another in earlier texts(B.G,S.B terms like kaivalya etc) and it seems that the compartmentalization of different paths was not as rigid as we see in the current times. There was fluidity in usage of terms like kaivalya sayugya and mukti, and they did not carry a negative connotation like in the current times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your clarification.  According to the writings of Krisnamacarya, he just uses yoga as a tool to aid in his bhakti and his ideal of dasya rasa in Vaikuntha. Perhaps it is similar to the person in Prema Pradipa of BVT who uses yoga, but only as a tool to aid in bhakti. There are other examples like Dhruva who use yoga as a tool to reach Narayana. And again it is perplexing to find Krsna, yogesvara himself employing yoga in his morning sadhana.<br />
There were lot of spillovers from one path to the another in earlier texts(B.G,S.B terms like kaivalya etc) and it seems that the compartmentalization of different paths was not as rigid as we see in the current times. There was fluidity in usage of terms like kaivalya sayugya and mukti, and they did not carry a negative connotation like in the current times.</p>
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		<title>By: swami bv tripurari</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1097</link>
		<dc:creator>swami bv tripurari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1097</guid>
		<description>Love involves becoming one with another. This is Jiva Goswami&#039;s idea, but it is clearly an interpretation from another &lt;em&gt;darsana&lt;/em&gt;. But it seems clear that there are two interpretations of &lt;em&gt;kaivalya&lt;/em&gt; within the yoga community, Paramatma &lt;em&gt;sayujya&lt;/em&gt; and passive adoration. The latter really comes to &lt;em&gt;santa rasa&lt;/em&gt; through &lt;em&gt;yoga-misra-bhakti&lt;/em&gt; and is rarely understood, but it seems that from what Gaura-vijaya has written about the lineage of Pattabhi Jois that, at least in theory, this was his ideal.

Earlier Gaura-vijaya cited a devotee who wrote this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;When you are empty of samprajnata (”complete [sam-] profound [pra-] knowledge [jnata]“) as in asamprajnata,the idea here is that the self is so utterly absorbed by the very object on which one is meditating that one is no longer aware of such complete and profound
knowledge. It is truly a state of ecstasis (”standing outside” of oneself),and in bhakti, this is the state of the Vrajagopikas in their hearts’ one pointed focus upon Krishna. Patanjali himself gives a definition of samadhi wherein he describes the self “as if” (iva) being completely devoid (sunya) of self (YS 3.3).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is some truth to this and I recently answered a question about this similarly during a lecture. However, it is hardly the enitre story. The absorbtion of the &lt;em&gt;gopis&lt;/em&gt; is not comparable to that which what can be realized by &lt;em&gt;yoga-misra-bhakti&lt;/em&gt;. It amounts to much more than &lt;em&gt;citta-vritti nirodah&lt;/em&gt;, which may be more akin to &lt;em&gt;ceto darpana marjanam&lt;/em&gt; as opposed to &lt;em&gt;citta hari&lt;/em&gt; or havng one&#039;s mind (&lt;em&gt;citta/ceto&lt;/em&gt;) stolen by Hari. And the &lt;em&gt;visya alambana&lt;/em&gt; of &lt;em&gt;yoga misra bhakt&lt;/em&gt;i is Paramatma, not Bhagavan.   

In the &lt;em&gt;Bhagavata&lt;/em&gt;, we find the milkmaids of Vraja chanting &lt;em&gt;so ’ham&lt;/em&gt; at the height of their love in separation from Gopala Krishna. After Krishna disappeared from the circular love dance, the gopîs, lost in thought of him, declared themselves to be Krishna (&lt;em&gt;asav aham&lt;/em&gt;) (SB 10.30.3). However, even as they declared themselves to be Krishna, they were searching for him. They did not actually become Krishna, for if they had there would have been no further possibility to enjoy rasa with him for which they were so eager. Thus their feelings of oneness with him are described in the same Bhagavata verse as being &lt;em&gt;vibhrama&lt;/em&gt;, mistaken. Theirs was a case of mistaken identity caused by love. Moreover, vibhrama means beauty. Thus they experienced a nuance of love within a beautiful pastime (&lt;em&gt;vibhramavilasa&lt;/em&gt;) of lover and beloved. In &lt;em&gt;Ujjvala-nîlamani&lt;/em&gt; 11.28–30, Rupa Gosvami identifies this nuance as the &lt;em&gt;anubhava&lt;/em&gt; called &lt;em&gt;lila&lt;/em&gt;, which he understands in this instance to mean “imitation of the beloved.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love involves becoming one with another. This is Jiva Goswami&#8217;s idea, but it is clearly an interpretation from another <em>darsana</em>. But it seems clear that there are two interpretations of <em>kaivalya</em> within the yoga community, Paramatma <em>sayujya</em> and passive adoration. The latter really comes to <em>santa rasa</em> through <em>yoga-misra-bhakti</em> and is rarely understood, but it seems that from what Gaura-vijaya has written about the lineage of Pattabhi Jois that, at least in theory, this was his ideal.</p>
<p>Earlier Gaura-vijaya cited a devotee who wrote this:</p>
<blockquote><p>When you are empty of samprajnata (”complete [sam-] profound [pra-] knowledge [jnata]“) as in asamprajnata,the idea here is that the self is so utterly absorbed by the very object on which one is meditating that one is no longer aware of such complete and profound<br />
knowledge. It is truly a state of ecstasis (”standing outside” of oneself),and in bhakti, this is the state of the Vrajagopikas in their hearts’ one pointed focus upon Krishna. Patanjali himself gives a definition of samadhi wherein he describes the self “as if” (iva) being completely devoid (sunya) of self (YS 3.3).</p></blockquote>
<p>There is some truth to this and I recently answered a question about this similarly during a lecture. However, it is hardly the enitre story. The absorbtion of the <em>gopis</em> is not comparable to that which what can be realized by <em>yoga-misra-bhakti</em>. It amounts to much more than <em>citta-vritti nirodah</em>, which may be more akin to <em>ceto darpana marjanam</em> as opposed to <em>citta hari</em> or havng one&#8217;s mind (<em>citta/ceto</em>) stolen by Hari. And the <em>visya alambana</em> of <em>yoga misra bhakt</em>i is Paramatma, not Bhagavan.   </p>
<p>In the <em>Bhagavata</em>, we find the milkmaids of Vraja chanting <em>so ’ham</em> at the height of their love in separation from Gopala Krishna. After Krishna disappeared from the circular love dance, the gopîs, lost in thought of him, declared themselves to be Krishna (<em>asav aham</em>) (SB 10.30.3). However, even as they declared themselves to be Krishna, they were searching for him. They did not actually become Krishna, for if they had there would have been no further possibility to enjoy rasa with him for which they were so eager. Thus their feelings of oneness with him are described in the same Bhagavata verse as being <em>vibhrama</em>, mistaken. Theirs was a case of mistaken identity caused by love. Moreover, vibhrama means beauty. Thus they experienced a nuance of love within a beautiful pastime (<em>vibhramavilasa</em>) of lover and beloved. In <em>Ujjvala-nîlamani</em> 11.28–30, Rupa Gosvami identifies this nuance as the <em>anubhava</em> called <em>lila</em>, which he understands in this instance to mean “imitation of the beloved.”</p>
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		<title>By: Gaura-Vijaya</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1096</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaura-Vijaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1096</guid>
		<description>From the Tattva sandarbha (
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/sandarbhas/tattva/sandarbhas52.htm) we find this verse quoted and explained,
&quot;&lt;strong&gt;Suta Gosvami replies (SB. 12.13.12):

The subject matter of the Bhagavatam, non-dual reality, is the essence of all Vedanta. It is characterized by the unity of Brahman with atma, and it&#039;s sole purpose is to grant &lt;strong&gt;kaivalya&lt;/strong&gt;, or pure devotion. &lt;/strong&gt;&quot;

So here kaivalya is interpreted to mean &#039;pure devotion&#039;by jiva Gosvami. So this problem of interpretation is eternal and never will be resolved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the Tattva sandarbha (<br />
<a href="http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/sandarbhas/tattva/sandarbhas52.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/sandarbhas/tattva/sandarbhas52.htm</a>) we find this verse quoted and explained,<br />
&#8220;<strong>Suta Gosvami replies (SB. 12.13.12):</p>
<p>The subject matter of the Bhagavatam, non-dual reality, is the essence of all Vedanta. It is characterized by the unity of Brahman with atma, and it&#8217;s sole purpose is to grant </strong><strong>kaivalya</strong>, or pure devotion. &#8221;</p>
<p>So here kaivalya is interpreted to mean &#8216;pure devotion&#8217;by jiva Gosvami. So this problem of interpretation is eternal and never will be resolved.</p>
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		<title>By: Citta Hari</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1095</link>
		<dc:creator>Citta Hari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 00:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1095</guid>
		<description>Bhrgupada said: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Kaivalya indeed means “aloneness” or “isolation”, but how does that make the system monistic? Kaivalya simply means that a purusha becomes free of prakriti, and YS 2.22 makes it clear that there are many purushas since prakriti remains even after one purusha attains kaivalya.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You&#039;re right; the yoga system is not inherently monistic just because Patanjali chose to use the word kaivalya. It&#039;s all about interpretation of the text; those who do so through the lens of Advaita-Vedanta render it in a monistic way, in keeping with their chosen metaphysic. A practitioner of bhakti would never render the sutras in such a way as to do away with the purusa. That said, I think the explanation you gave here is not very well known yet, and among the more hardcore Advaitins will not sway them anyway.


Gaura Vijaya said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;My basic point is that bhakti is also a form yoga and most devotee practitioners of earlier ages did employ techniques from yoga in their life to aid their bhakti. There is potential to actually break the strong association of Yoga with Advaita Vedanta by showing how Sankara himself attacks it. This will motivate yoga practitioners to move towards the goal of suddha bhakti.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree with your basic point that bhakti is also a form of yoga. After all, in bhakti we have the Gitopanisad, which is a yoga-sastra. In a broad sense yoga is any system or process by which the mind is subdued and made fit for meditation. Since bhakti begins with a controlled mind clearly yoga is a big part of bhakti.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bhrgupada said: </p>
<blockquote><p>Kaivalya indeed means “aloneness” or “isolation”, but how does that make the system monistic? Kaivalya simply means that a purusha becomes free of prakriti, and YS 2.22 makes it clear that there are many purushas since prakriti remains even after one purusha attains kaivalya.</p></blockquote>
<p>You&#8217;re right; the yoga system is not inherently monistic just because Patanjali chose to use the word kaivalya. It&#8217;s all about interpretation of the text; those who do so through the lens of Advaita-Vedanta render it in a monistic way, in keeping with their chosen metaphysic. A practitioner of bhakti would never render the sutras in such a way as to do away with the purusa. That said, I think the explanation you gave here is not very well known yet, and among the more hardcore Advaitins will not sway them anyway.</p>
<p>Gaura Vijaya said:</p>
<blockquote><p>My basic point is that bhakti is also a form yoga and most devotee practitioners of earlier ages did employ techniques from yoga in their life to aid their bhakti. There is potential to actually break the strong association of Yoga with Advaita Vedanta by showing how Sankara himself attacks it. This will motivate yoga practitioners to move towards the goal of suddha bhakti.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree with your basic point that bhakti is also a form of yoga. After all, in bhakti we have the Gitopanisad, which is a yoga-sastra. In a broad sense yoga is any system or process by which the mind is subdued and made fit for meditation. Since bhakti begins with a controlled mind clearly yoga is a big part of bhakti.</p>
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		<title>By: Bhrigupada Dasa</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2009/05/k-pattabhi-jois-dies-at-94/comment-page-1/#comment-1088</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhrigupada Dasa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=764#comment-1088</guid>
		<description>Every translation I’ve read renders kaivalya (in the Kaivalyapada section) as “isolation” or “oneness.” Since Patanjali only the barest definition of what the state of kaivalya actually is unless one is well read in other sastras then there really is no reason to render it otherwise–taken at face value and in the context of the Sutras themselves (i.e., without taking into account sastras from other darsanas) “oneness” is the most natural reading of kaivalya.&lt;blockquote&gt;

Kaivalya indeed means &quot;aloneness&quot; or &quot;isolation&quot;, but how does that make the system monistic? Kaivalya simply means that a purusha becomes free of prakriti, and YS 2.22 makes it clear that there are many purushas since prakriti remains even after one purusha attains kaivalya.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every translation I’ve read renders kaivalya (in the Kaivalyapada section) as “isolation” or “oneness.” Since Patanjali only the barest definition of what the state of kaivalya actually is unless one is well read in other sastras then there really is no reason to render it otherwise–taken at face value and in the context of the Sutras themselves (i.e., without taking into account sastras from other darsanas) “oneness” is the most natural reading of kaivalya.<br />
<blockquote>
<p>Kaivalya indeed means &#8220;aloneness&#8221; or &#8220;isolation&#8221;, but how does that make the system monistic? Kaivalya simply means that a purusha becomes free of prakriti, and YS 2.22 makes it clear that there are many purushas since prakriti remains even after one purusha attains kaivalya.</p></blockquote>
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