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	<title>Comments on: Is There a Secular Meditation?</title>
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	<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/</link>
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		<title>By: Gauravani dasa</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-15110</link>
		<dc:creator>Gauravani dasa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-15110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jace,

Atheist&#039;s emotional bias against religion is a subjective experience. Yet, mysticism is also a subjective experience that leads to a different theistic conclusion.

I&#039;m curious about why you would give more weight to one subjective experience over another.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jace,</p>
<p>Atheist&#8217;s emotional bias against religion is a subjective experience. Yet, mysticism is also a subjective experience that leads to a different theistic conclusion.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious about why you would give more weight to one subjective experience over another.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jace</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-15106</link>
		<dc:creator>Jace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2012 07:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-15106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very informative article, thanks for writing it :)

&lt;blockquote&gt; And if ego death is objectively desirable, giving rise as it does to compassion and other universally supported qualities, why argue with the success arising out of a religious context?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As an atheist, I can say that there are probably two main reasons. You&#039;ve already stated the first one, because we (atheists in general) have an emotional bias against religion. Although it would be better if we didn&#039;t, it&#039;s undeniable that this is true.

The second reason is essentially a slippery slope. As an atheist, I&#039;m fine with people being religious, however I&#039;d rather not support anything that relies on mysticism. Mysticism tends to lead towards more mysticism, which is exactly what I don&#039;t want for humanity. I&#039;d rather have a purely scientific method of meditation than something watered down with religion.


&lt;blockquote&gt;The Science of the Near-Death Experience offers considerable evidence that consciousness is non-local and that is has no biological makeup&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I&#039;ve done some research on this book, and it is simply not good science. The things that you see in people with near death experience can be nearly exactly mirrored with the exact same chemicals released during sleep.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very informative article, thanks for writing it <img src='http://harmonist.us/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<blockquote><p> And if ego death is objectively desirable, giving rise as it does to compassion and other universally supported qualities, why argue with the success arising out of a religious context?</p></blockquote>
<p>As an atheist, I can say that there are probably two main reasons. You&#8217;ve already stated the first one, because we (atheists in general) have an emotional bias against religion. Although it would be better if we didn&#8217;t, it&#8217;s undeniable that this is true.</p>
<p>The second reason is essentially a slippery slope. As an atheist, I&#8217;m fine with people being religious, however I&#8217;d rather not support anything that relies on mysticism. Mysticism tends to lead towards more mysticism, which is exactly what I don&#8217;t want for humanity. I&#8217;d rather have a purely scientific method of meditation than something watered down with religion.</p>
<blockquote><p>The Science of the Near-Death Experience offers considerable evidence that consciousness is non-local and that is has no biological makeup</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve done some research on this book, and it is simply not good science. The things that you see in people with near death experience can be nearly exactly mirrored with the exact same chemicals released during sleep.</p>
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		<title>By: Babhru</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11989</link>
		<dc:creator>Babhru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 03:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for this comment. It is an eloquent statement (in the sense of the Bengali aphorism--concise and essential) statement of what I feel is the most reasonable perspective on this. I have always felt Abbott&#039;s Flatland to be an apt analogue when considering this topic. It may help us understand positivism&#039;s limitations. There is much about consciousness, after all, that is simply beyond the mind and senses&#039; ken.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this comment. It is an eloquent statement (in the sense of the Bengali aphorism&#8211;concise and essential) statement of what I feel is the most reasonable perspective on this. I have always felt Abbott&#8217;s Flatland to be an apt analogue when considering this topic. It may help us understand positivism&#8217;s limitations. There is much about consciousness, after all, that is simply beyond the mind and senses&#8217; ken.</p>
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		<title>By: swami bv tripurari</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11988</link>
		<dc:creator>swami bv tripurari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding neuroscience&#039;s mapping of the correlation between brain events and mind experiences and the sense that correlation between the two will lead to proof  that the brain causes mental events including an illusory sense of self, it is perhaps worth noting that Gaudiya Vedanta acknowledges a qualified unity of brain and mind. Both are matter, gross and subtle. And the &quot;I am American&quot; or whatever that is the reflection of the deeper &quot;I am&quot; of consciousness proper is only an illusion of self.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding neuroscience&#8217;s mapping of the correlation between brain events and mind experiences and the sense that correlation between the two will lead to proof  that the brain causes mental events including an illusory sense of self, it is perhaps worth noting that Gaudiya Vedanta acknowledges a qualified unity of brain and mind. Both are matter, gross and subtle. And the &#8220;I am American&#8221; or whatever that is the reflection of the deeper &#8220;I am&#8221; of consciousness proper is only an illusion of self.</p>
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		<title>By: Babhru</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11986</link>
		<dc:creator>Babhru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 23:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Madhumangala wrote, 
&lt;blockquote&gt;So if asceticism is not necessarily the same as detachment, what does detachment actually mean?

I have always thought that asceticism implied things like ego death…&lt;/blockquote&gt;, 

to which Nitaisundara replied,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Detachment, on the other hand, is a lack of exploitation. One can be disciplined in the context of self-surrender or they can exploit discipline and renunciation for name and fame. But both could look the same on the outside, therefore the need for introspection in oneself and generosity with others.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And I think this brings us to an essential point. What, indeed, does detachment actually mean? In the context of Gaudiya vedanta, it ultimately means attachment--to Krishna, to his service, and to the company of those dedicated to that service. Sadhana is meant to bring us ultimately to bhava, in which state our hearts become soft. (Bhava, in turn, is meant to bring us to prema, in which state our hearts melt.) We would do well to cultivate introspection, appreciation for the experience of others, and the generous spirit which is characteristic of bhakti. We can&#039;t do so artificially, of course; these come when we open our hearts to the influence of Krishna&#039;s svarupa shakti. I think that such an approach may be difficult to find in other pursuits, including other religions, although not impossible, as we see in the character of St. Francis and St. Teresa.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madhumangala wrote, </p>
<blockquote><p>So if asceticism is not necessarily the same as detachment, what does detachment actually mean?</p>
<p>I have always thought that asceticism implied things like ego death…</p></blockquote>
<p>, </p>
<p>to which Nitaisundara replied,</p>
<blockquote><p>Detachment, on the other hand, is a lack of exploitation. One can be disciplined in the context of self-surrender or they can exploit discipline and renunciation for name and fame. But both could look the same on the outside, therefore the need for introspection in oneself and generosity with others.</p></blockquote>
<p>And I think this brings us to an essential point. What, indeed, does detachment actually mean? In the context of Gaudiya vedanta, it ultimately means attachment&#8211;to Krishna, to his service, and to the company of those dedicated to that service. Sadhana is meant to bring us ultimately to bhava, in which state our hearts become soft. (Bhava, in turn, is meant to bring us to prema, in which state our hearts melt.) We would do well to cultivate introspection, appreciation for the experience of others, and the generous spirit which is characteristic of bhakti. We can&#8217;t do so artificially, of course; these come when we open our hearts to the influence of Krishna&#8217;s svarupa shakti. I think that such an approach may be difficult to find in other pursuits, including other religions, although not impossible, as we see in the character of St. Francis and St. Teresa.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gaura-Vijaya</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11984</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaura-Vijaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for your comprehensive answer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your comprehensive answer.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: swami bv tripurari</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11983</link>
		<dc:creator>swami bv tripurari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Saying everything is caused by the physical brain appears sensible in our waking state, but it might appear untrue if there are higher dimensions of consciousness that subsume the waking dimension. In other words, even if we were absolutely convinced by observable evidence that our self-awareness arises out of matter, we could still be wrong. Plato&#039;s allegory of the cave speaks to us about the idea of multi-dimensional consciousness, and the waking dimension of consciousness seems the most real until we fall asleep. Similarly, a lucid dream appears real until we wake up. So given that this is the case with these two dimensions of consciousness, it is not at all unreasonable to think that a higher state of consciousness, the mystic experience, would from its perspective, demonstrate the relativity of our present waking dimension. 

The fact is that when one enters into the mystic dimension of consciousness, the experience is that the waking state derives from it and is but a shadow of itself. From that perspective it appears that neuroscience and physicalism are but logical extensions of Edwin Abbot&#039;s Flatland thinking. The bottom line is that we know that higher dimensions of consciousness exist and can be accessed. They also offer great value to human society, giving rise to compassion, self-satisfaction, etc. The only thing that is not agreed upon is what these higher dimensions portend. Given their demonstrated value, it&#039;s quite reasonable to pursue them wholeheartedly, without concern for what they &quot;mean&quot;—whether they constitute the transcendence of biological death or the plasticity of awareness located in the brain. At the same time, it is quite reasonable to maintain that those who have experienced these mystic dimensions of consciousness are in a better position to talk about their actual meaning, especially when we can observe that they have achieved a sense of satisfaction and meaning that everyone is arguably looking for. Indeed, what is holding one back from pursuing this other than the quest for satisfaction and meaning through experiences that we know objectively, upon having, will not bring the same sense of self-contentedness?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saying everything is caused by the physical brain appears sensible in our waking state, but it might appear untrue if there are higher dimensions of consciousness that subsume the waking dimension. In other words, even if we were absolutely convinced by observable evidence that our self-awareness arises out of matter, we could still be wrong. Plato&#8217;s allegory of the cave speaks to us about the idea of multi-dimensional consciousness, and the waking dimension of consciousness seems the most real until we fall asleep. Similarly, a lucid dream appears real until we wake up. So given that this is the case with these two dimensions of consciousness, it is not at all unreasonable to think that a higher state of consciousness, the mystic experience, would from its perspective, demonstrate the relativity of our present waking dimension. </p>
<p>The fact is that when one enters into the mystic dimension of consciousness, the experience is that the waking state derives from it and is but a shadow of itself. From that perspective it appears that neuroscience and physicalism are but logical extensions of Edwin Abbot&#8217;s Flatland thinking. The bottom line is that we know that higher dimensions of consciousness exist and can be accessed. They also offer great value to human society, giving rise to compassion, self-satisfaction, etc. The only thing that is not agreed upon is what these higher dimensions portend. Given their demonstrated value, it&#8217;s quite reasonable to pursue them wholeheartedly, without concern for what they &#8220;mean&#8221;—whether they constitute the transcendence of biological death or the plasticity of awareness located in the brain. At the same time, it is quite reasonable to maintain that those who have experienced these mystic dimensions of consciousness are in a better position to talk about their actual meaning, especially when we can observe that they have achieved a sense of satisfaction and meaning that everyone is arguably looking for. Indeed, what is holding one back from pursuing this other than the quest for satisfaction and meaning through experiences that we know objectively, upon having, will not bring the same sense of self-contentedness?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: swami bv tripurari</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11977</link>
		<dc:creator>swami bv tripurari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 23:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11977</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, and some people never get off the fence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, and some people never get off the fence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Nitaisundara</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11976</link>
		<dc:creator>Nitaisundara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Most commonly asceticism is practiced in a religious, and therefore ideally ego-effacing context, but it need not be. People may live austerely and very disciplined for any reason under the sun, including ego-aggrandizement. What&#039;s more, it is primarily within the religious context that ego-indulging asceticism appears, because it is religious people who tend to value simplicity, discipline, etc. In these cases asceticism (renunciation) becomes an opulence itself (as it is said to be one of the 6 opulences) and can pull one down into pride. Such is the nature of real spiritual progress, very hard to determine on the outside. 

As the famous Bhagavatam verse says: 

ye &#039;nye &#039;ravindaksha vimukta-maninas
tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah
aruhya kricchrena param padam tatah
patanty adho &#039;nadrita-yushmad-anghrayah

O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for your lotus feet. (10.2.32)

Detachment, on the other hand, is a lack of exploitation. One can be disciplined in the context of self-surrender or they can exploit discipline and renunciation for name and fame. But both could look the same on the outside, therefore the need for introspection in oneself and generosity with others.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most commonly asceticism is practiced in a religious, and therefore ideally ego-effacing context, but it need not be. People may live austerely and very disciplined for any reason under the sun, including ego-aggrandizement. What&#8217;s more, it is primarily within the religious context that ego-indulging asceticism appears, because it is religious people who tend to value simplicity, discipline, etc. In these cases asceticism (renunciation) becomes an opulence itself (as it is said to be one of the 6 opulences) and can pull one down into pride. Such is the nature of real spiritual progress, very hard to determine on the outside. </p>
<p>As the famous Bhagavatam verse says: </p>
<p>ye &#8216;nye &#8216;ravindaksha vimukta-maninas<br />
tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah<br />
aruhya kricchrena param padam tatah<br />
patanty adho &#8216;nadrita-yushmad-anghrayah</p>
<p>O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for your lotus feet. (10.2.32)</p>
<p>Detachment, on the other hand, is a lack of exploitation. One can be disciplined in the context of self-surrender or they can exploit discipline and renunciation for name and fame. But both could look the same on the outside, therefore the need for introspection in oneself and generosity with others.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Gaura-Vijaya</title>
		<link>http://harmonist.us/2012/04/is-there-a-secular-meditation/comment-page-1/#comment-11975</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaura-Vijaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harmonist.us/?p=7665#comment-11975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;So it is a notable piece of evidence. It is also notable that the vast majority of people don’t change their opinions despite evidence. So chalk one uo for his character as well.&quot;
I agree. It is brave for him to change because people on either side don&#039;t ever cross the fence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So it is a notable piece of evidence. It is also notable that the vast majority of people don’t change their opinions despite evidence. So chalk one uo for his character as well.&#8221;<br />
I agree. It is brave for him to change because people on either side don&#8217;t ever cross the fence.</p>
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