Jiva Falls
Submitted by Harmonist staff on June 24, 2012 – 9:58 am15 Comments
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When one is exclusively devoted and unconscious of the environment, then one may go on with his smarana within. But this is not at all possible for the beginners.
“Researchers and policy makers generally don’t see the earth that predates humans as an optimal original state. ‘Obviously the best thing for the environment is to kill ourselves,’ Jahn says.”
A grassroots movement has recently emerged in which a number of scientists, philosophers, ethicists and legal experts have rallied together in support of the idea that some nonhuman animals are persons.
“…may I be blessed with the grace of Gadadhara Pandita, the master of the Bhagavatam from whom Mahaprabhu listens to the Bhagavatam. I invoke his mercy.”
Too often we encounter either complete beginner’s guides to spiritual practice or the classic sacred texts, which have endured yet may be hard to penetrate. Karnamrita’s book falls nicely in between these extremes.
Is it possible for someone to make a clear and concise description of how it is that ISKCON and it’s members are falling? I understnd 2-3 points at present:
1) ISKCON has taken an offensive stand in relation to Shridhar Swami (A.C. Bhaktivedanta’s beloved godbrother).
2) ISKCON has taken an offensive stand in relation to Tripurari Swami.
3) ISKCON may have implemented a guru program that is not in line with shastric teachings. However, I do not know the details of that program or how it differs from the shastric position. Can someone clear that up for me?
Ishan, this comic does not imply that members of Iskcon are fallen, it implies that Iskcon takes the philosophical position that the jiva has fallen from the spiritual world rather than the position that karma is anadi. See: Anadi for Beginners: We All Have to Start Somewhere…Or Do We?
and, ISKCON is the only (hence the sign) Gaudiya mission which has adopted the philosophy that somehow or other the jiva in its post-liberated state in direct relationship with Krsna is touched by maha-maya and falls down into the material realm.
I think a bigger problem than the apasiddhanta is quarrel amongst the vaishnavas. You can correctly say that ISKCON is the only group who has the misconception that the jiva falls. However, it is also correct to say that they got that idea from Srila Prabhupada who often said it.
My Guru Maharaja was very emphatic in preaching the universally accepted (outside of ISKCON) siddhanta that the jiva does not fall from Vaikuntha. However, I don’t see a problem if some followers of Srila Prabhupada want to repeat some of the other statements that Prabhupada made, ie we fell.
As long as there is no quarrel.
I’ve heard that when he was presented with this controversy, Srila B. P. Puri Maharaja’s only comment was, “I do not think that this is a good reason to divide our sampradaya.”
I’m certainly not into it, but I can see why for preaching some persons may find it useful to advocate fall-vada.
Puri Goswami Maharaja spoke of dividing Iskcon over the issue, not the sampradaya.
But the jiva issue is symptomatic of the deeper problem the sect faces. It is largely unwilling to understand its founder within the context of his sampradaya. While it embraces statements of its founder, it often does not care to examine them in light of the overall framework of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. When it conducts itself in this manner it effectively disconnects itself from its own parampara, its purvacaryas. And when it does so in a manner that also effectively does away with any ongoing continuation of the paramapara, it only makes matters worse. For example, Prabhupada says that the sect’s governing body commission should be its ultimate managing authority. Iskcon translation: “Iskcon is Prabhupada’s body. Managing his body is spiritual. Thus the governing body is the ultimate spiritual authority for Iskcon members and its initiating gurus are relative authorities for its members. Diksa involves allegiance to the governing body and the institution over allegiance to the guru.” God consciouness is subtly replaced with society consciousness. The governing body becomes the successor and the scriptural understanding of guru-tattva is corrupted, all in the name of strictly following Prabhupada. Thus the sect is arguably divorced from the guru parampara on both ends and adopts policies and teachings that are often different from Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Then when others endeavor to understand Prabhupada in light of well established Gaudiya siddhanta, as he taught his students to do, they are officially denounced as having deviated from Prabhupada’s teaching and vilified. This has been my personal experience.
Madhavananda, I always appreciate your disinterest in quarrel as a great quality of yours. I also appreciate your adherence to and presentation of siddhanta.
A major point of Swami’s related article on anadi-karma is that yes, there has been utility in advocating the fall of the jiva in the past, even amongst our great acaryas. The question now is whether that serves any purpose. I remember as a new devotee this was one of the very first issues that didn’t sit right with me, and it is a BIG one. And while I know that quarrel amongst Vaisnavas is troublesome, the need to establish clear siddhanta overshadows even the need to keep friendly relations between groups. If ISKCON only used fall-vada in a utilitarian sense, “for preaching” there would not be such a problem. Unfortunately it has been presented as THE only acceptable doctrine for the devotees as well, not just for preaching. “Preaching and siddhanta aren’t always one.” As Swami very clearly and very beautifully points out in the comment above, this deviation in confusing preaching and siddhanta is symptomatic of greater problems and when you start with a miscalculation in the beginning of math, you end up with big problems further down the road.
I think ISKCON and all Gaudiya Maths are in the same boat more or less. Falling from tatastha or falling from brahmajyoti are no better explanations than falling from Vaikuntha and the Gaudiya Maths mock ISKCON about their wrong understanding while doing the same thing themselves. Either accept new revelations from “any” realized soul when they contradict sastra or stick to the sastric position.
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”-Mark Twain
This is completely hilarious!
I love it! We laughed and laughed. Great comic thanks.
One small point, although it is unfortunately still the “official position” within ISKCON, it’s not correct to say that everyone there believes it. Certainly it was not the conception of Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja, nor thankfully even a growing number of present GBC members and leaders.
Guru Nistha Prabhu, thanks again for your comics! I’m one of your fans.
Ishan-ji, Like Gauravani pointed out, the purpose of the comic was never to say that ISKCON devotees are fallen.
Madhavananda prabhu, thank you for the nice words!
And I appreciate you making the point that not everyone in ISKCON stands behind the idea that the Jiva falls.
Comics are sometimes tricky because they largely derive their effectiveness from generalizations, but that can really offend people who feel they have been unfairly pigeon-holed.
But if the sign in the comic would’ve said, “For those members of ISKCON only who believe in the fall theory” it would’ve not quite cut it, if you know what I mean
I thought the comic was perfect Prabhuji. Let those who identify with this idea get some pressure.
In regards to this topic, I wrote the following recently to another devotee:
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For those who are interested, the simple fact is that outside of some persons in ISKCON, there are no followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta who teach that we fall from the spiritual world. In fact, none of our acaryas taught that, and there are no other Gaudiya Vaishnavas in any of the many branches of Mahaprabhu’s line who teach that the origin of the conditioned souls is in the spiritual world in a relationship with Krishna. In fact, there is no one in any of the four Vaishnava sampradayas who teach that. In fact, there are no Hindus who teach that.
It’s basically a Christian concept.
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If the shoe fits…
I have trouble with the hypocritical nature of an institution that states a policy on record that is apasiddhantic and this jiva issue is just one (guru-tattva issues are another), and yet some members will go on record that they don’t accept it while others simply deny it behind closed doors. Yet they remain proponents and supporters of the institution even when it gets to the point that the institution will promote offensive thinking against those who have different opinions than they do. I say this to be frank not judgmental.
I agree with Madhavananda prabhu, as long as there is no quarrel, I guess you can believe whatever you want. However, be humble about the reality that you are the odd ones out and perhaps your own constituents don’t agree. Yet that never seems to be the case with ISKCON GBC.
I think Hayagriva got Prabhupada’s ear and read some of Milton’s ‘Paradise Lost”, where Satan and his crew fall from heaven, and out of envy at that.. I was in an Iskcon temple one class and heard the speaker say we fell from the spiritual world out of envy.. When i challenged him to state the shastric evidence, he said Bhaktivinode had stated it somewhere.. I think not.. I did look at the vedabase after that, and found a lecture, only one reference that i could find, where Prabhupada said exactly that; we fell out of envy. I think it was Hayagriva, but that is purely fanciful speculation on my part… lol….
over the falls they fly everything will be ok if they see through the ones who put up roadblocks.Think for your self hear from one who knows. For me on my spiritual journey no one or group can stop me from hearing the real truth.